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Step back in time to the early 20th century, when recorded music wasn’t pressed onto vinyl, burnt onto CD or compressed into MP3 but moulded into durable blue celluloid cylinders.
- The Edison Blue Amberol Records, introduced in 1912, marked a major leap forward in audio quality and durability compared to earlier wax cylinders.
- These records, produced by Thomas Edison’s phonograph company, offered clearer sound, longer playback times, and incredible longevity, making them a favourite among collectors and audio enthusiasts even today.
- In this project, I’ll guide you through how I built a player for these historic records—bringing the echoes of the past back to life!
- Whether you’re a vintage audio enthusiast, a history lover, or just someone looking to appreciate the mechanical marvels of early sound reproduction, this guide will help you step into Edison’s world of recorded music.
- Let’s dive into the mechanics, electronics, and techniques needed to get these century-old records spinning again!
This is something I have been thinking about for a while, I just needed an actual "Edison Blue Amberol Record".
I have designed this so that as much as possible could be laser cut from a sheet of 3mm Hardboard.
- I wanted to design a good project to be made using a Desktop Laser Cutter.
There are some parts to be bought like:
- Roller Barings.
- Electrical components.
- Some screws.
The Electrical components are for playback and Speed Control.
I have made the device quite small and light weight, which makes it quite portable.
- The input power is 5 volts about 1 amp peek, so an old wall-wart power supply can be used.
The mechanism I am pleased with is the way I am able to move the stylus arm along while playing the record.
I don't know how robust the "Edison Blue Amberol Record" are so if you make this and have some very rare expensive records, play them on a proper machine.
- I built this as a proof of concept project.
Why a Special Stylus is Needed for Edison Blue Amberol Records
Unlike modern vinyl records, which use lateral-cut grooves, Edison Blue Amberol records feature vertical-cut grooves. This means that a standard LP or 78 RPM stylus is not designed to track them properly, leading to poor audio pickup.
Vertical vs. Lateral Tracking: Edison records require a stylus that moves up and down, whereas modern styluses track side to side.
Stylus Shape Matters: A proper Edison stylus has a broader, rounded tip, typically 3.7 to 4.2 mil, designed to distribute force evenly and prevent excessive wear.
Higher Tracking Force: Original Edison phonographs applied 30–50 grams of pressure, requiring a stylus that can withstand greater force while protecting the record.
Material & Durability: Edison players used diamond-tipped styluses for longevity, whereas modern turntables often use sapphire or smaller diamond tips that may wear down faster.
Using an incorrect stylus could result in distorted playback and damage to the record over time. If adapting a modern system, finding a stylus with the correct shape, material, and tracking orientation is crucial for accurate and safe playback of Edison cylinder records.
SuppliesThe main material for this project is 3mm Hardboard with one side having a white finish.
- All Laser cut.
- Files attached.
- All files are drawn to a no fit size. There are settings like Off-set and kerf that need to be set on the laser cutter to achieve a perfect fit of the parts.
- An ST-Link will be required to program the STM8S103F.
- Also ST Visual Develop IDEfrom STMicroelectronics.
- Hardboard, I got my sheet from Wicks (3mm General Purpose White Faced Hardboard Sheet), it was a big sheet that they cut into smaller pieces that would fit on my laser. Depending on where you are it may be 1/8" (3.2mm) I have based all my drawings around 3mm thick material.
- 5x Bearings, 18x12x4mm.
- 3x Rubber pulley Belts, I bought an assortment of 1.2mm square belts.
- 1x 3mm polished Stainless Steel rod 160 mm long. There are a couple of short pieces so get more than needed.
- 1x Neodymium Magnet 5x5x2mm.
- A lot of M1.7x6mm self tap flat nose screws.
- PVA glue. I use PVA glue because it holds just enough and if necessary I am able to take apart.
- Heat-shrink, various sizes.
- A Sheet of card 0.4mm thick.
- 1x Stylus head.
- 1x Brushless DC motor, I got my motor cheap, it needs to be a brushless motor with inbuilt driver. Preferably 6-24V, CW, Diameter = 24mm. The one I have is Nidec 13H186A.
- 1x Micro Mini N20 Gear Motor DC 3V -6VSlow Speed.
- 1x Infrared Line Track Sensor. Needs to be one that has 3mm IR LEDs.
- 2x Reed Switch Normally Open.
- 1x 3 way (on1-off-on2) DPTT
- 1x STM8S103 Module.
- 1x DVR8833 Module.
- 1x Boost. MT3608.
- 1x Mono amplifier Module.
- 1x Electrolytic capacitor, for stabilization. (optional)
- 1x at least 4k no more than 10k Potentiometer. Large with knob.
- Some resistors. 2x-100R, 2x-4.7k, 1x-5R.
- 1x 0.96" OLED SSD1306 I2C 128X64 LCD.
- 1x 8 ohm speaker. The amplifier is supposed to output 5W.
- Lengths of cable.
The base is what every thing is mounted on.
- Other major assemblies will be screwed to the Base.
- I attached other assemblies with screws so some disassembly could be don if necessary.
The Base consists of:
- 1x "Main_Base_Top.dxf"
- 2x "Main_Base_F_B.dxf"
- 2x "Main_Base_Side.dxf"
All Parts are glued together.
The "Main_Base_F_B.dxf" and "Main_Base_Side.dxf" need the ends gluing together before gluing the "Main_Base_Top.dxf" on top of them
Step 2: End Support StandThe End Support Standconsists of:
- 1x "End_Support.dxf"
- 2x "End_Support_Base_Stifener.dxf"
- 1x "End_Support_Base.dxf"
All Parts are glued together.
The "End_Support_Base_Stifener.dxf" are inserted into the "End_Support.dxf" Then the "End_Support_Base.dxf" is fitted to them.
Step 3: Pivot SupportNote
- Some parts are screwed, to aid disassembly if needed.
- As the hardboard is only white on one side, some duplicated parts are opposite handed.
The Pivot_Support consists of:
- 1x "Pivot_Support_Base.dxf"
- 1x "Pivot_Support_Arm_A.dxf"
- 1x "Pivot_Support_Arm_B.dxf"
- 1x "Pivot_Support_Frame.dxf"
All Parts are glued together.
Glue the "Pivot_Support_Arm_A.dxf" and "Pivot_Support_Arm_B.dxf" to the "Pivot_Support_Frame.dxf", then glue them to the "Pivot_Support_Base.dxf".
The Support Arm Retainers consists of:
- 2x "Pivot_Support_Arm_Top.dxf" (One ass is, one opposite handed)
- 2x "Pivot_Support_Arm_Retainer.dxf" (One ass is, one opposite handed)
When glued together, they are screwed to the Pivot Support Assembly.
The best way to do this is to screw the "Pivot_Support_Arm_Retainer.dxf" to the Pivot Support Assembly first, add some bearings.
This will align the "Pivot_Support_Arm_Top.dxf" perfectly when glued to the "Pivot_Support_Arm_Retainer.dxf".
Step 4: MandrilThe Mandrilconsists of:
- 6x "Mandril_Spoke.dxf"
- 1x "Large_End_Outer_A.dxf"
- 1x "Mandril_Small_End.dxf"
- 1x "Large_End_Centre.dxf"
- 1x "Large_End_Outer_B.dxf"
- 1x "Inner_Bering_Mount_A.dxf"
- 1x "Inner_Bering_Mount_B.dxf"
- 1x "Outer_Bering_Mount_A.dxf"
- 1x "Outer_Bering_Mount_B.dxf"
- 2x "Bering_Retainer.dxf" (Only one will be used at this time).
All Parts are glued together.
This bit is a little fiddley fitting six pieces at the same time, if they have been cut correctly you need to align them perfectly.
This is where a good fit is important to make sure all is aligned perfectly, and misalignment will show up when the mandril spins.
- Fit the the six "Mandril_Spoke.dxf" into "Large_End_Outer_A.dxf" and "Mandril_Small_End.dxf".
- Fit "Large_End_Centre.dxf" onto "Large_End_Outer_A.dxf".
- fit "Large_End_Outer_B.dxf" onto "Large_End_Centre.dxf".
- Slot "Inner_Bering_Mount_A.dxf" and "Inner_Bering_Mount_B.dxf" into each other, the fit them inside the large end of the mandril,
- Slot "Outer_Bering_Mount_A.dxf" and "Outer_Bering_Mount_B.dxf" into each other, the fit them inside the small end of the mandril,
- Fit a bearing to the small end and retain in place with a "Bering_Retainer.dxf"
- Fit a bearing to the large end.
The pivot has aligners to align things up.
The Mandril consists of:
- 1x "Motor_Mount.dxf"
- 2x "Pivot_Alighners.dxf"
- 1x "Pivot_Centre.dxf"
- 2x "Pivot_Offset.dxf"
All Parts are glued together.
- Fit the the two "Pivot_Alighners.dxf" into "Motor_Mount.dxf".
- Fit one "Pivot_Offset.dxf" onto "Motor_Mount.dxf".
- Fit one "Pivot_Centre.dxf" onto "Pivot_Offset.dxf"
- Fit the other "Pivot_Offset.dxf" onto "Pivot_Centre.dxf".
- Fit two Bearings.
There is an Idle pulley that a 2:1 ratio change to the pulley belts.
- It requires a 3mm diameter polished bar 40mm long.
- Use the 3mm rod to align all the parts.
The Pulley Gear consists of:
- 1x "Gear_Wheel_A.dxf"
- 1x "Gear_Wheel_B.dxf"
- 1x "Gear_Wheel_C.dxf"
- 1x "Gear_Wheel_D.dxf"
- 1x "Gear_Wheel_E.dxf" This is made from 0.4mm card.
All Parts are glued together.
The sequence of assembly is A, B, E, C then D.
- Once the glue has set, free the pulley from the spindle.
I may design a 3D Printed version of this. (I was trying to sick to making all with the hardboard).
Step 7: Pulley MountingThe Pulley Mounting is put together lick a puzzle.
The Pulley Mounting consists of:
- 1x "Pulley_Bracket.dxf"
- 2x "Stiffener_A.dxf"
- 1x "Stiffener_B.dxf"
All Parts are glued together.
- Fit the both "Stiffener_A.dxf" into the "Pulley_Bracket.dxf" one at a time.
- Fit "Stiffener_B.dxf" into "Pulley_Bracket.dxf" between the two "Stiffener_A.dxf"
- Place the 3mm diameter 40mm long rod inside while the glue sets.
Use the motor to a align the Pulley Mount to the Motor mount,
- Fit the Motor and Pulley Mount to the Pivot.
- The motor should just go through the "Motor_Mount.dxf" not to be too far that a pulley wheel can be made on the motor spindle.
- Depending on the motor you was able to get you will have to make something up to act as a pulley.
- As My motor had a pinion gear on the spindle, I just used some shrink-wrap to make a pulley.
I have use an Infrared Line Track Sensor. It has 3mm IR LEDs.
- The LEDs need to be removed from the Module and extension wires attached to the pins of the LEDs back to the module.
- Take note of the polarity of the LEDs before removing them. Mark them so that you know which leg is positive and negative.
The Sensor Mount Assembly consists of:
- 1x "Sensor_Base.dxf"
- 2x "Sensor_Mount.dxf"
- 2x "Sensor_Pin_Hole_.dxf" These are made from 0.4mm thick card.
All Parts are glued together. (Apart from the module)
- Fit the two "Sensor_Mount.dxf" into the "Sensor_Base.dxf". Note the orientation of the small holes.
- Glue the two "Sensor_Pin_Hole_.dxf" to the inside faces of the "Sensor_Mount.dxf"s.
- One screw and small washer holds the Module to the underside of the "Sensor_Base.dxf".
The Mandril is kept in place by a "Bering_Retainer.dxf".
- Use a small amount of glue holding this in place.
- To disassemble this part if needed, the "Bering_Retainer.dxf" will need to be removed.
- Slide the mandril into the pivot.
- Insert the bearing and attach the "Bering_Retainer.dxf"
- Add Belts.
I do not glue the Sensor Mount Assembly in place.
- This is something that needs to be removed should you want to disassemble the Mandril.
- I find it best to slide the Sensor Mount Assembly over the "Large_End_Outer_A.dxf" first then insert the tabs of "Sensor_Base.dxf" into "Motor_Mount.dxf"
Time to mount the supports for the Mandril to the Base.
Each support is held in place using four screws.
Step 13: Fit the MandrilThe Mandril Assembly should sit in place on the three bearing mounts.
- Re-Fit the Pivot Support Arm Retainers.
- The front Pivot Support Arm Retainer, is a little snug to fit, but it will squeeze in past the Pulley Support if you rotate the Mandril upwards.
- Rotate the Mandril upwards to aid fitting the screws.
The Travel Motor requires a Pulley Wheel.
The Pulley Wheel consists of:
- 1x "Travel_Motor_Pulley_A.dxf"
- 1x "Travel_Motor_Pulley_B.dxf"
- 1x "Travel_Motor_Pulley_C.dxf"
All Parts are glued together on to the motor shaft.
The sequence of assembly is B, A, then C.
I may design a 3D Printed version of this. (I was trying to sick to making all with the hardboard).
Step 15: Travel Idler WheelThe Travel Idler Wheel is a free rolling pulley.
- It requires a 3mm diameter polished bar 15mm long.
- Use the 3mm rod to align all the parts.
The Idler Wheel consists of:
- 1x "Travel_Idler_Wheel_A.dxf"
- 2x "Travel_Idler_Wheel_B.dxf"
All Parts are glued together.
The sequence of assembly is B, A, then B.
- Once the glue has set, free the pulley from the spindle.
I may design a 3D Printed version of this. (I was trying to sick to making all with the hardboard).
Step 16: Stylus Arm FrameThe Stylus Arm Frame has a N20 Motor and two 3mm Rods one 160mm long and the other 15mm long.
- A rubber belt is also needed.
The Stylus Arm Frame consists of:
- 1x "Sylus_Frame_Brace.dxf"
- 2x "Travel_Motor_Mount.dxf" One as drawn, One Opposite handed.
- 1x "Sylus_Frame_Leg_L.dxf"
- 1x "Sylus_Frame_Leg_R.dxf"
- 2x "Travel_Idler_Wheel_Support.dxf"
- 1x "Frame_Bracing.dxf"
- 2x "Arm_Frame_Base.dxf" One as drawn, One Opposite handed.
- 2x "Tylus_Arm_Slide_Stop.dxf"
All Parts are glued together apart from the metal bits
- Fit "Sylus_Frame_Leg_L.dxf" and "Sylus_Frame_Leg_R.dxf", either side of "Sylus_Frame_Brace.dxf" and "Frame_Bracing.dxf".
- Side the 3mm Rod 160mm long into place and secure using two "Tylus_Arm_Slide_Stop.dxf" with screws
- Fit the two "Travel_Idler_Wheel_Support.dxf".
- Fit the two "Arm_Frame_Base.dxf". One should be opposite handed to the other.
- Fit the Travel Motor Assembly using two "Travel_Motor_Mount.dxf". One should be opposite handed to the other. A little glue should be applied to the motor housing.
- Fit the Rubber Belt and Travel Idler Wheel.
The Travel Slide Assembly slides along the 3mm polished Bar.
- It clamps to the Rubber Belt using two clamps.
- Having two clamps enables some tension to be applied to the Rubber Belt.
The Travel Slide Assembly consists of:
- 1x "Travel_Slide.dxf".
- 2x "Travel_Slide_Side.dxf".
- 2x "Travel_Belt_Clamp.dxf"
Only the "Travel_Slide.dxf" and "Travel_Slide_Side.dxf" are glued together.
- It is best to use the 3mm Bar to make sure the sides are aligned.
- Fit the two "Travel_Slide_Side.dxf" to the "Travel_Slide.dxf".
- Screw the two "Travel_Belt_Clamp.dxf" in place.
The Stylus Arm requires:
- A Stylus Cartridge.
- A Bearing.
- A Magnate
The Travel Slide Assembly consists of:
- 1x "Sylus_Arm.dxf".
- 1x "Sylus_Arm_Bearing_Seat_.dxf".
The A Stylus Cartridge should be secured using the screw for it, the rest is glued together.
- Fit the bearing flush with the top of "Sylus_Arm.dxf".
- Fit "Sylus_Arm_Bearing_Seat.dxf" over the top of the Bearing. Be sur not to get glue into the bearing.
- Fit the Magnet into the end of the "Sylus_Arm.dxf".
- Secure the cartage in place, note the orientation of the stylus.
The mounting Hole for the Stylus Cartridge may need to be altered depending on the Cartridge you where able to get.
- Adjustments can be worked out once the assembly is complete.
The Carriage requires:
- 2x Reed Switches.
The Stylus Arm Carriage consists of:
- 1x "Reed_Switch_Mount.dxf".
- 1x "Sylus_Arm_Slide_Top.dxf".
- 2x "Sylus_Arm_Slide_Supports.dxf". One as drawn, One Opposite handed.
- 1x "Sylus_Arr_Bearing_Mount_A.dxf".
- 1x "Sylus_Arr_Bearing_Mount_B.dxf".
All Parts are glued together.
- Fit the Reed Switches. These should have there wires glued into "Reed_Switch_Mount.dxf" so that the wires have a short length enabling the Reed Switches to be moved by bending the wires for adjustment.
- Fit the "Sylus_Arm_Slide_Top.dxf" into the "Reed_Switch_Mount.dxf".
- Fit the two "Sylus_Arm_Slide_Supports.dxf" under the "Sylus_Arm_Slide_Top.dxf".
- Fit "Sylus_Arr_Bearing_Mount_A.dxf"and "Sylus_Arr_Bearing_Mount_B.dxf" together, then inset them into the top of "Sylus_Arm_Slide_Top.dxf".
Lets join the Stylus Arm to the Carriage.
The Assembly requires:
- 1x "Bering_Retainer.dxf".
- The two previous assemblies.
- Place the Stylus Arm Bearing over the mount on the carriage.
- Fix the bearing in place with a "Bering_Retainer.dxf".
To fit the Stylus Arm and Carriage we need to slide out the 160mm long rod.
- I hope the image shows this.
The Travel Slide Assembly sits in between the legs of the Stylus Arm Carriage.
- The Travel Slide Assembly is clamped to the Rubber belt.
- I hope the Image shows how tension can be applied to the Rubber Belt.
The Stylus Arm and Carriage Frame is secured to the base in eight places using screws.
- That's All the mechanical bits.
- Now its time to do the electrical parts.
I have decided to do this in two stages.
- Use Fritzing and build the Circuit on a Solderless Breadboard.
- Design a PCB.
When creating this project it went through a lot of iterations.
- To Start with I just used a 5 volts DC motor I salvaged from a CD Players draw mechanism.
- I just used a variable speed DC Motor controller.
This worked to a certain degree, but was not good enough.
- See the video. (Part 1)
Then I thought I need some sort of display to show the RPM of the cylinder.
- I went OTT. (Over The Top)
- As I was using a Microcontroller to calculate and display the RPM, I thought of using PID (Proportional-Integral-Derivative) Control.
- PID did not work out, the Motor is practically direct drive, there is no leeway to power/toque control.
- I was putting too many "If Then" conditions into the code.
Finally
- Had a rummage in my box for another motor.
- The Motor needed for this project had to be free running, have no gearbox, as the gear rattle would transfer to the pickup.
- I found a brushless motor with its own built in driver, this made things simple.
- The driver would keep the toque and speed with PWM controlled by a voltage applied.
- I when for modifying a Boost Module to supply an adjustable voltage.
I hope that the Image is enough for a replica to be made.
- The original potentiometer act as OVP (Over Voltage Protection).
- After the modification is done, the output voltage needs to be set below the max voltage the motor runs at.
- When setting the max voltage the new added Potentiometer need to be rotated to give the max voltage.
- If you find the voltage does not increase turning the new potentiometer clock-wise, swop the wire on the new potentiometer to the resistor terminal.
I have used a 4k ohm Potentiometer. (it's what I had)
- A 10k should be fine.
- Anything between 1k and 10k, this is basically acting as a fine tune.
I have done a Fritzing of the circuit.
- I was going to make an exact copy of what I am using in the video.
- It takes time to create Fritzing Parts, I have created some, but Adafruit have versions of some so I used them.
I have attached the file so you can open an modify as you wish.
- Also it will enable you to see the circuit more clearly.
It's pretty simple really:
- The motor (Brushless with driver) speed is controlled by altering the voltage to the motor driver.
- The Audio is picked up by a record stylus connected to a simple mono amplifier, with a speaker.
- The Stylus Arm Carriage is moved by a small geared motor, the motor is controlled by a DRV8833 Driver, which is switched when a Magnet activates a relevant Reed Switch.
- The Display is the most complicated part, it is controlled by a microcontroller STM8S103.
- The STM8S103 takes a pulsing signal from an Infrared Senso, calculates how fast the pulses are coming and displays the result as RPM (Revolutions Per Minuet).
- The standard speed for an Edison Blue Amberol Record is 160RPM.
Next step is to design a PCB to tidy it all up.
- I have done a shared project on
- where you will be able to get your own.
Designing a PCB:
- Take time to think what to put on the PCB.
- There are many options to think about, like decide where I am going to go with this project.
I have designed the PCB as a prototyping board.
- It only needs populating with the components I have used in the project.
- There are places for other components.
- Not all components footprints are use, I have added places for future upgrades and experimentation.
do a good deal for prototype PCBs that are less than 100mm x 100mm.
PCBs can have a lot of real estate when doing simple PCBs.
- I tend to add as much to the PCB as possible, within reason.
- Just putting the bear minimum I think is a waist.
- As the first is a prototype, I tend to add things I may want to do in the future.
- The fritzing showed what it currently needs, as I have a Microcontroller on the board I may as well add connections for a rotary encoder, have outputs for PWM, have inputs for buttons.
- Adding the extra footprints means should I want to add these things at a later date I can.
The PCB I have designed will not need to be fully populated at this time.
Step 27: STM8S103FThe STM8S103F will need programming to read the signal and display the RPM.
Using the ST Visual Programmer makes this easy.
- To get "ST Visual Programmer" download and install ST Visual Develop IDEfrom STMicroelectronics.
- Also an ST-Link will be required to program the STM8S103F.
To program the STM8S103F we need to use the ST-Link v2 USB device.
The ST-Link has two ways to connect to a microcontroller.
- SWIM (Single Wire Interface Module) This is how we need to connect.
- It also can use SWD (Serial Wire Debug) this uses two communication wires clock and data (SWCLK / SWDIO)
So for us there are four wires to connect from the ST-Link and the STM8S103F.
- 3.3v
- GND
- RST
- SWIM
The connections are same-to-same.
To program the Microcontroller you will need "ST Visual Programmer" and the Firmware files.
- you can get the firmware files from the shared Project at:
Once you are connected as in Step 27.
- We are ready to start programming.
When you open "ST Visual Programmer", it is important that you have the correct Microcontroller selected.
- Make sure STM8S103F3 is selected in the dropdown box in the toolbar at the top. (A)
- This can also be selected on the configuration dialog window. (B)
Lets use the Configuration window.
- Click Configure on the toolbar at the top. (1)
- Choose: "Configure ST Visual Programmer". (2)
- This will open the "Configuration" Dialog Window.
- Select: "Hardware" to ST-LINK. (3)
- Select: "Port" to USB. (4)
- Select: "Programming Mode" to SWIM. (5)
- Select: "Device" to STM8S103F3 (6)
- Click "OK" when done. (7)
I have purchased several STM8S103F Modules off eBay, so far I have had both variants: STM8S103F2 and STM8S103F3. Only the STM8S103F3 work for this project.
- The difference between the two is the size of EEPROM Memory.
Then we do PROGRAM MEMORY.
- Select the PROGRAM MEMORY tab. (1)
- Click "File" on the Toolbar. (2)
- Select: "Open". (3)
In the "Open" dialog window:
- Browse to where you downloaded the tims_edison_cylinder_record_player_oled.s19 file. (4)
- Select it. (5)
- Click "Open". (6)
When ready:
- Click: "Program" on the toolbar.
- Select: "Current tab"
The file should upload to the Microcontroller.
Step 30: Programming [DATA MEMORY]Then we do DATA MEMORY.
- Select the DATA MEMORY tab. (1)
- Click "File" on the Toolbar. (2)
- Select: "Open". (3)
In the "Open" dialog window:
Browse to where you downloaded the DATA_MEMORY.s19 file. (4)
- Select it. (5)
- Click "Open". (6)
When ready:
- Click: "Program" on the toolbar. (7)
- Select: "Current tab" (8)
The file should upload to the Microcontroller.
Step 31: Programming [OPTION BYTE]There is a third tab "OPTIONS BYTE"
- Select the OPTIONS BYTE tab. (1)
- Click "File" on the Toolbar.
- Select: "Open".
Browse to where you downloaded the OPTIONS BYTE.s19 file.
- Select it.
- Click "Open".
When ready:
- Click: "Program" on the toolbar. (3)
- Select: "Current tab" (4)
You should be able to do Steps 4 and 5 now.
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